teriel: The difference between occultism and paganism

Taylor E (

teriel) wrote,
@ 2006-07-04 17:38:00

Current mood:	thoughtful
Entry tags:	magic

The difference between occultism and paganism
Met with technoccult. Interesting fellow...one of the originators of key23.

We talked a fair amount about community and why pagans and occultists often identify away from each other. I have a few thouhgts on that which I'll share here:

1. The importance and use of magic. For pagans magic tends to take a back seat to a relationship with the dieties being worked with. Magic is more of a religious activity as well and increasingly I'm seeing that there are specialists in its use...i.e. not every pagan practices magic. OTOH with occultists every occultist I know practices magic...It's a central part of what they do and the use of magic is driven more toward process, technique, and result. Magic is used to manifest reality as opposed to working with deity.

Even with that said I know many occultists who are also pagan and vice versa...

2. Pagans are slowly becoming more mainstream and mainstream certain approaches to magic as well. Occultism tends to stay in counter-culture, more underground, more hidden. The various festivals for pagans are one such move toward mainstream culture, whereas occultism doesn't have too many conventions. By deafult i've noticed that pagan festivals do attract occultists, but there isn't a strictly occult meeting, largely because the community is much smaller than with pagans.

3. Labels. Unfortunately thanks to Aristole and Greek culture we have a need to define and differentiate everything, as well as determining how everything is different. The differences could just be semantics...silly semantics at that, but ones that people take way too seriously.

I'm sure I could think of even more differences, but I think in the end the differences ar artificial...I'd rather work toward the similarities.

(Post a new comment)

	minofsin06 2006-07-05 12:52 am UTC (link)
	I'm curious. What is the practical difference between an occultist and a pagan? Help out the ignorant Christian here :) (Reply to this) (Thread)

masque12
2006-07-05 01:00 am UTC (link)

In this context, a pagan is a member of a religion, who may or may not practice magic. Non magical pagan practices can be considered roughly analogous to the religious practices of Christianity, mass-like ceremonies, weddings, baptisms, rite-of-passage type ceremonies (like Catholic confirmation), etc. These are largely celebratory in nature, and reinforce a person's role in their particular religious community.

Magic tends to be oriented towards achieving personal goals, like helping oneself find a job, reaching insights, divining the nature of business deals, just as a few of the more obvious examples. There's not as much of the community centered aspect to it, for the most part.

As there is overlap between religious occultists and pagan magicians, the lines tend to blur a bit, but those are the basic distinctions as I see them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

jb98
2006-07-05 01:15 am UTC (link)

Interesting distinction, thanks for expounding on it. I've felt extremely resistant to take up the label Pagan, although I'm completely comfortable in that environment and it doesn't go counter to any of my personal belief systems. I'm a loner, not much into the gods worshiping thing, however my majik is focused on more than just personal goals. Protection of and assistance to others make up the large majority of it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	masque12 2006-07-05 02:08 am UTC (link)
	As I said, the lines do blur. Magic for the benefit of others is certainly included in what I was talking about, the main thing is that it's more than a purely celebratory thing, like ritual in a religious context usually is. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	wire_mother 2006-07-05 03:07 am UTC (link)
	for a moment, i thought that i'd replied here and forgotten it. nice icon! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	masque12 2006-07-05 03:08 am UTC (link)
	Thanks. YOG! SOTHOTH! I love Dunwich Horror. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	geek_dragon 2006-07-05 06:27 am UTC (link)
	I'd just like to say that the religious analogs you're talking about are not neccessarily non-magical. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	masque12 2006-07-05 11:40 am UTC (link)
	I am aware of that, but I was explaining the distinction to a non-pagan/non-occultist, and therefore trying to simplify. The intent of the ritual is the main key, and I think we can agree that there is a distinction between a religiously focused ritual as opposed to one with more of a pure magical intent, even though both can include elements of the other. (Reply to this) (Parent)

sol_et_luna
2006-07-05 08:06 am UTC (link)

Assuming that every pagan religion has baptisms and mass-like ceremonies. Mine would be quite exempt from that.

We have weddings and funerals, but they were not performed by priests back in the day. This is changing now and there's a seriously divided opinion on the whole priesthood thing given that anyone could lead a festival or ritual to the gods in ancient Greece. But you gotta move with the times, IMHO.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	masque12 2006-07-05 11:44 am UTC (link)
	Sure, I'm well aware of the wide variety of pagan religious practices. I picked those examples because they were the likeliest analogs to the experience of someone not familiar with pagan/occult practices. I was addressing a Christian who expressed unfamiliarity with the concepts, after all. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	tsuzuki26 2006-07-05 01:08 am UTC (link)
	Occultists are more interested in the skills, and can be of any religious affiliation, whereas paganism is an umbrella term for a variate of religious affiliations. The late 19th century French magician, Eliphas Levi is an excellent example of a Catholic occultist. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	minofsin06 2006-07-05 01:50 am UTC (link)
	Thanks! (Reply to this) (Parent)

teriel
2006-07-05 01:15 am UTC (link)

Pretty much what

masque12 said. I tend to fall in the occultist camp. The majority of magic I do is about technique, process, and personal empowerment. While I work with deities, and other entities sometimes, it is a mutual partnership as opposed to religious oriented service. Basically I think of them as partners and I work with them toward mutual goals.

I do the occasional pagan like ritual of offerings just for the sake of making offerings and in that aspect my approach is more religious/devotional.

Most pagan rituals I've been to are holiday/celebatory/marking a time of the year, which I designate as religious. They are good for community purposes.

Unlike

masque12 I don't do much magical group workings. I don't tend to work with people too much, prefering a solitary approach and from what I'ver seen this tends to be the trend with most occultists. There are some group meetings, but even then the majority of workings are done alone. I only work with a select crowd of people, in my case, and even then with no particular affiliation beyond the fact that I trust them.

There are occult organizations, but I've never joined any, just flirted with the possibility...imo they work for some people and for others like me, they don't work.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	minofsin06 2006-07-05 01:50 am UTC (link)
	Kewl. Thanks for the info. From my slanted background, I always thought the two were interchangeable terms, so thanks for the clarification. Makes a lot more sense now. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sol_et_luna 2006-07-05 08:03 am UTC (link)
	I actually know of a good many Christian occultists. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	masque12 2006-07-05 02:11 am UTC (link)
	I do a lot of solo work myself, but I'm in a good Pylon of the TOS and I enjoy those group workings. I lucked out with the makeup of the group, I certainly wouldn't do any kind of group work with the majority of people in the larger local "pagan" community. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	masque12 2006-07-05 12:53 am UTC (link)
	1. Dead on, as applied to me, (in the occultist camp) anyway. 2 and 3 not as big a thing, as far as I'm concerned. Group religions are not a big thing for me, although my magical work certainly does have a personal spiritual/philosophical aspect. Group magical work is, however, something I enjoy. (Reply to this)

jb98
2006-07-05 01:22 am UTC (link)

I'm sure I could think of even more differences, but I think in the end the differences ar artificial...I'd rather work toward the similarities.

I prefer to work with similarities in all things spiritual and I think this is why I'm completely comfortable and at home in many different traditions and realms. While individuals may be different, my experience with people focused on differences is that most have a divide and and conquer motive.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	teriel 2006-07-05 02:09 am UTC (link)
	yes...that and I think Western cultural approaches have been responsible for more destruction because of this need to label than anything else. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

werekat
2006-07-05 08:45 am UTC (link)

There is one thing that never ceases to amaze me about you, Teriel. The active disdain for Western cultural approaches - which you still hail from, and which still influence you.

There were reasons for everything becoming the way it was. For instance, classification is a method for creating a magical link. To name something is to connect it with yourself. To classify it is to enter it into your own coordinate system, make it accessible. It's one possible way - neither better nor worse than any of the others. It has not done harm. It has created a culture with its own beauty and its own faults. Moreover, it's the culture that raised you, and whose traits I see rather often in your own posts. What is this strange disdain based on? I genuinely don't understand.

I'm curious - have you taken the time to examine the magic of names and naming in historical perspective?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

teriel
2006-07-05 03:24 pm UTC (link)

Given my familarity with linguistics, rhetoric, and semiotics I'm very familiar with naming and where it came from and why, as well as the magical context of its use.

And I agree with you that I'm a product of this western culture. It's precisely because I am such a product and because I am actively exploring alternate ways of knowing that I see how destructive western culture is. The U.S. is the ultimate paradigm of that destructiveness, as is evident by the war in IRAQ and the Us. vs them mentality that insists that there are terrorists everywhere.

Has the U.S. even bothered to try and understand the viewpoints of terrorists? Hardly...because that convenient practice of labeling things that Aristotle started up way back when has been used as a way of determining who is the bad guy. Western culture has created duality, polarity, etc., and with it a whole host of ills. The various religious wars fought because this person doesn't believe what I believe, or how about the racism that occurs due to labels? His skin color isn't the same as mine so I should hate him. Or the relentless drive of technology and science and consumerism that drives the econonmy. The latest, greatest newest thing...and hey if it happens to contribute to the greenhouse effect or the pollution of the environment no problem because western culture has been taught to differentiate from the comfortable static reality of consumerism and that horrible natural environment that has inconvenient things such as animals and bugs and other experiences that can only truly be understood by experiencing them, as opposed to labeling them. Western culture is so caught up in analytical thinking that it's forgotten how to experience and feel...forgotten to respect other ways of knowing. And sadly more often than not I see a lack of ethics and morality to temper the development of new technology, to ask is this something we should really develop?

And lets not forget academia. I have seen how that process of definition, labeling, and analysis has crushed creativity in individuals. Do you know that the liberal arts, particularly art and to some degree English are the programs with the least funding in schools? Why because western culture is obsessed with practicality. Science, math, technology...these things are more important. Do you know that the humanities in academia are obessed with trying to be scientific, so they can get more funding? The alternate ways of knowing that creativity offers isn't valued because it's not something conveniently labeled or turned into a process. My time in academia showed me an obsession with trying to control things through labeling, as opposed to just experiencing them...it also showed me a dullness in thought, as opposed to clarity, because people got so caught up in definign something that they lost any joy in what they were doing. Feeling had no place in such staid environments. It's why I left academia, because creativity and experience are not valued. Only that analytical thinking.

And yet I'll admit freely I use this thinking, this approach to label and define, but I balance it carefully with other modes of knowing, recognizing that it isn't the only way to experience a reality. The disdain I have is for an over emphasis on analytical thinking that fails to recognize the mystical, or dismisses it as insane. And unfortunately this is what western culture has developed toward. Analytical thinking, defining, labeling does have it's uses, but there must be context for those uses.

I don't doubt that western culture has it's own beauty. Indeed there's a lot about it I do appreciate. The problem is though that western culture has a disdain everything else, because anythign that doesn't fit into neat little labels is strange and a threat and should be squashed as much as possible. And though I am a product of western culture, I am all those others things as well and I will not be squashed by a culture obsessed with analyzing things to death. People who only think, and do not feel tend to be monsters...the utter detachment I have experienced in myself and I see all too often in other people in my culture is a result of analytical thinking. So we are beautiful monsters and you have your answer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	fraterachdae 2006-07-05 02:21 am UTC (link)
	This about covers it. Up until recently, I only fell into the 'occultist' camp. Now, however, I'm actively Pagan, though in a definitely counter-cultural group (that is, a small group that fully intends on remaining anarchistic and out of the general public eye). (Reply to this)

xi_o_teaz
2006-07-05 02:46 am UTC (link)

First thing to pop into meind when I read the title of this post was:

Occultism = Science
Paganism = Religion

...obviously that's incredibly simplified, but I also think it's rather explanatory.

Along those lines (another extreme oversimplified example), I think that at one extreme you have Pagans who dislike the Selfish Occultists for doing their Low Magick; and on the other end of the spectrum, you have Occultists who dislike the Devotional Pagans' bowing to "Gods".

From a certain perspective, it could be said that most people who spend any time/energy in pursuing "supernatural"/spiritual/religious pursuits, are looking for answers to The UnKnown. Humans being what they are, this often lends itself to social/community/tribal bonding around said pursuit. "Let's Fight this problem (unCertainty, etc.) together!" You see it in almost every religious community (and even in Magickal Orders). Perhaps the rarity of the Solitary Occultist/Magickian is because most people attracted to these pursuits for extended periods of time tend to move to more social Paths. Magick, by its very nature, is rather Self-ish, or pertaining to the Personal Desires, etc.

jes sum thawts

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	teriel 2006-07-05 02:46 pm UTC (link)
	I also think of the magician as very much more a mystic, plumming the depths of the universe for answers to questions. And is the magician really alone? That's something I wonder about sometimes too. In many ways with the workings I'm not really alone, just in a differt place. (Reply to this) (Parent)

wire_mother
2006-07-05 03:06 am UTC (link)

i think that the primary difference is in terms of view - the occultist concentrates on an individual view, the pagan concentrates on a community view. of course, that's not precisely true. most people in general in this culture concentrate on the individual view. but paganism, with its magic centered on annual rhythms and the long view, seems to unconsciously invoke the community spirit, while occultism with its concentration on finding timing that is convenient to the individual (speaking very generally here) seems to center on the individual.

an example: polytheists are most likely to interact with the body of Ancestor spirits, while the magician is more likely to interact with hir personal Genius/Holy Guardian Angel/whatever you want to call it. the one connects to the stream of generations, the other to a more localized time and space.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	sol_et_luna 2006-07-05 07:33 am UTC (link)
	Depends on the polytheist. The Greek concept of the Agathos Daimon fits in VERY well with the concept of the HGA. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

wire_mother
2006-07-05 07:55 am UTC (link)

yeah, i agree completely. as i said, it's not precisely true. there are many similarities between the two categories. some Occultists work primarily with Aeonic Currents, some Polytheists strive for personal improvement. perhaps it's just that there is a tendency toward one or the other which creates an imprecise, but still factual, impression.

in addition to the Agathos Daimon, the personal Genius also fits the idea of the HGA in many ways, as does the Fylgja, and the Coimimeadh, and….

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sol_et_luna 2006-07-05 08:02 am UTC (link)
	It's hard to paint either group with such a wide brush due to the extreme variations in each. I've met religious and spiritual occultists, and I've met atheists. At the same time, there is a HUGE variety of pagan religions out there with about as much variety in beliefs and practices as exists in the occult communities. My religion invented the term theurgy. Hee. (Reply to this) (Parent)

masque12
2006-07-05 11:53 am UTC (link)

True, but there's also differences in practices depending on the time period one is referencing. I could be mistaken, but all of the references to the Agathos Daimons I've seen date to the Hellenistic period, when the Greeks, Romans and Egyptians (along with a few Jews and other minority cultures) were mixing it up in Alexandria. That time period is the very birthplace of Hermeticism, so it's no surprise that there would be analogs to the HGA. I myself find the earlier Greek concept (Agathos Daimon) superior.

In earlier Greek times, however, when there was less of a focus on Hermetic magic and more of a religious polytheist tradition, I'm not aware of similar concepts. I would love to be corrected if I'm mistaken, however, my research has been focused on the Hermetic period, it being most useful to me, my knowledge of earlier Greek pagan thought is woefully lacking.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

erynn999
2006-07-05 03:34 am UTC (link)

I'd say that yet again, I straddle the boundaries as a mystic and as a Pagan occultist. Hermeticism, astrology and formalized systems of divination work hand in hand with offerings, seasonal rituals, and visionary vigils to form my personal system, all of which is wrapped thoroughly in my approach to my personal spirituality.

I would tend to agree that there are varying degrees of overlap, though I don't think it's strictly a social vs individual pursuit. After all, there have been magical lodges since at least the middle ages, and these were social in nature with groups of people working toward the same magical goals. That goal might be personal evolution, political revolution, or the pursuit of physical alchemical processes requiring assistants as well as the primary operator. In all cases it's still an activity that involves groups of people.

It's also entirely possible to have very solitary Pagan paths and practices. Pagan mysticism is particularly likely to be solitary, as we are few and scattered. Even when we're social, most of what we do must, perforce, be done in solitude. When we're on the margins of society as geilta or mad/wild poets, that's even more likely and is in the very nature of the pursuit. Some of what I do really can't be done with groups at all, but it's way off on the "interacts with deities" end of the Pagan-occultist spectrum.

(Reply to this)

	sol_et_luna 2006-07-05 07:32 am UTC (link)
	1) Also, not all occultists are Pagan. They're often Christians, Jews, or Muslims. 2) Not all pagans believe in magick. I come from a very conservative pagan religion, and many of its members disavow any belief in anything magickal or psychic. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sol_et_luna 2006-07-05 07:35 am UTC (link)
	PS We even have a group in our community that takes pleasure running around telling everyone that if you're a mystic and/or you practice magick, you need psychiatric help. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	teriel 2006-07-05 02:57 pm UTC (link)
	Good points...thanks. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	werekat 2006-07-05 08:49 am UTC (link)
	I've found the differences in semantics are needed when people try to understand each other. Synthesis is individual, analysis is common - strange as it may be. In the practice of taking something apart together, much is learned about the person that you work with. Basically, two sides of the same process. Condemning one would be to destroy the other, as I think. (Reply to this) (Thread)

teriel
2006-07-05 03:00 pm UTC (link)

It depends on the mode of knowing you choose to use. Definitional analysis is only one mode of knowing. Intuition is yet another mode of knowing that doesn't necessarily involve breaking something apart, and yet works just fine for learning something about a situation.

Sometimes the emphasis on thinking and analyzing something misses out on the actual experiencing of that something.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	hypanebliss 2006-07-05 12:31 pm UTC (link)
	Total agreement there. Hell, that's true even in the wiccan tradition I'm part of. (Reply to this)

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